Dear Friends ..... how are you doing ? hope you are o.k.
As you all are aware ... a very significant social movement is going on inside the US....
Originally billed as a nationwide economic boycott under the banner "Day Without an Immigrant," the day evolved into a sweeping round of protests intended to influence the debate in Congress over granting legal status to all or most of the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the country.
You know me , I am not satisfied just with the media opinions ....I would like to hear from my friends around the world.. because
you are real people and you are my friends..... if you have a chance could you please give me a brief note with your point of view about this ???
Thanks a lot in advance !! and have a great day !!!
greetings from México .!!!!
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8 comments:
Hola Hugo!, mis comentarios en español para poderme explayar mejor: Personalmente, como ya te lo comenté, yo me enfrento a una serie de sentimientos encontrados que por un lado me hacen ser solidaria y por el otro estar en contra. Creo que es momento de que los gringos den un poco a torcer su brazo y se den cuenta que su país históricamente ha sido forjado y formado por todos los inmigrantes que en su terreno han encontrado la manera de vivir y sobrevivir...sin embargo por otro lado,me siento como que estoy apoyando a un ladrón o ratero... al final de cuentas, nuestros "paisanos" son ilegales, lo q' quiere decir que están en contra de las leyes, y en muchas ocasiones no cumplen con las reglas básicas de convivencia. Apoyaré a alguien que regresa a México a traerse una "troca" chocolate que contamina? que viene a tirar la basura aqui porque allá no lo dejan?. como que es difícil ser solidaria con alguien que no lo es para su propio país, no? .. en fin.. muchas cosas a considerar.. y creo que sigo siendo muy dura.. definitivamente hay casos y casos..
Saludos! y luego me cuentas que te dijeron tus demás amigos
Hi Hugo,
Very interesting question you're asking there, and one that is not easy to
answer in less than a couple of pages. This is one of those debates where
everyone is right and wrong at the same time. So I'll try to state my
opinion as briefly as I possibly can.
To put it bluntly, my advice to the US or in fact any country in the world
is simply: DO NOT GRANT LEGAL STATUS TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS!
Here in Belgium, as in most other countries in Europe, we have made that and
other mistakes in the past and the results have been devastating. Not that
we have officially granted legal status to that number of people. What we
have done is far worse than that.
It started in the 1960's when most of western Europe was prosperous and the
sorrows of World War II almost forgotten. Our people started to feel too
good to do some of the dirty jobs like collecting garbage or working in the
cole mines. So we welcomed thousands of Turkish and Moroccan workers to our
country for that kind of work and they of course were the happiest people in
the world to be here and make - what was for them - more than a decent
living. Of course those immigrants came over here fully legally, keeping
their nationalities but being allowed to live according to their home
culture and also to practice their religion (there are at least 50 mosques
in Belgium, all built with Belgian tax payers' money). And why shouldn't
they be allowed to do so? After all Belgium is a democratic country with a
very liberal constitution.
Those people did a fair job and got a fair pay, and there's nothing wrong
with that.
But as they began to prosper they started to realize that despite the money
they were sending to their families at home, those were still living in
misery. So they started bringing them over to Belgium, the land of milk and
honey. First their wife and children, then their parents, grandparents,
brothers and sisters, uncles and aunts, ect. Maybe with the exception of
their wife and kids, none of the other relatives ever got into the country
legally. But once they were here, of course the authorities were aware of
it, but they tolerated it and kept doing so for several decades. There have
been documented cases of one legal immigrant having brought over 12 or 13
relatives, all living together under one roof. So what, isn't that their
problem? Sure it is.
But what is OUR problem is that while the one legal immigrant had a job, a
good one, but not good enough to feed 14 mouths, the rest of the family
started to live at the expense of our social security, which has been known
as one of the best in the world. Whilst nobody protested that their children
could go to our schools at no cost whatsoever, the wife and her brothers and
sisters, as well as the parents and all other adults would register
themselves with the unemployment agency. It's not too hard to imagine that
being unskilled and unable to speak any of our national languages, getting a
job for them was just impossible. So every month they would collect a
substantial amount of tax payer's money in the form of unemployment benefit.
I guess it won't come as a big surprise to you that our tax rates went up
almost year after year, until they reached amongst the highest in the world!
And our government? Well, they just stood there and watched it happen. Most
of the last 30 years Belgium has been ruled by a so-called Roman-Red
coalition, i.e. Christian Democrats and Socialist Parties, in which the
former always provided the Prime Minister and therefore the Christian
Democrats had the appearance of power, whereas the ones who were really
pulling the strings were the Socialists. And you know as well as I do that
it would be unthinkable for a socialist to take any initiative to stop this
drainage of our welfare system. In fact, until not all that long ago they
even denied that there was a problem at all!
But then in the early 1990's a couple of extreme right-wing fellows decided
it had gone too far, so they founded a political party called "Flemish
Bloc". Not only were they the strongest advocates of the fact that Belgium
should be split in two, the regions of Flanders (in the north) and Wallonia
(in the south) each going separate ways, the main theme of their electoral
campaign was to do something about the situation involving (illegal)
immigrants. I think their hallmark slogan "Our own people come first!"
perfectly illustrates their creeds. In the first elections they ran in they
got a staggering number of votes, particularly in the big Flemish cities
like Antwerp and Ghent where, needless to say, the issue at stake could best
be seen and felt. And every election thereafter they ended up with more and
more votes, the majority of them coming from people who were not from the
extreme-right at all. But they voted for the Flemish Bloc as a means of
protesting against the complacency and indolence of our government, i.e. as
a signal not to be misunderstood as saying it was hightime to take action.
And for the past 5 or 6 years actions have been taken. New laws were
established making it much more difficult for people to immigrate, e.g. in
the past some lowly miserables with the Belgian nationality would get paid
to travel to Morocco, get married with a local woman, bring her and often
her children from a previous marriage into Belgium legally, and then divorce
her a few weeks after, and start all over again! Special administrative and
judicial departments have been set up to speed up the proces of people
seeking assylum in Belgium. Only exceptionally assylum is being granted now,
and when it is rejected the people are being deported and put on a plane
going back to their country of origin.
But despite all this, people are still cueing at our borders wanting to get
in; as soon as they are kicked out they turn around and try again. One
wonders why, don't you? Unfortunately the ones that should ask themselves
this question, our politicians, don't seem to be bothered at all. So let me
tell you my personal view.
Not that long ago I read in a report published by the Unicef that in the
year 2002 the buying power of the average Western European citizen was 68
times higher than the average African; in 1970 this ratio was only 16 to 1.
So for every bowl of rice the African had to feed his family with in 1970, a
European table had 16 bowls stacked up. But in those days there was no
television in Africa, hardly any radio and certainly no internet or wireless
phones. But there are now! So whereas in 1970 the African had heard what
seemed to him like a fairy tale about how great life was in Europe, he now
can see with his own two eyes an immense stack of 68 rice bowls on every
table in Europe while he still has only one!!!!!!!!
So what would you do if you saw that and you were hungry? Yep, you'd be
packing the little you had and you'd be on your way to get yourself some of
those rice bowls, wouldn't you? Darn right you would, and so would I!
In my view there's only one way to deal with this effectively and that is to
make it less attractive for them to come to Europe. Not by putting up
stringent rules and immigration procedures, because we can clearly see that
this doesn't work; they will just keep on trying. So the only way to make it
less attractive to come here is to make it more attractive for them to stay
where they are. And that is by sharing some of our abundance of rice bowls
with them, in the form of creating added value in their home countries. I
don't mean charity organizations distributing food and clothes, certainly
not! I'm talking about setting up and assisting them to run educational,
agricultural and industrial projects to help them substantially raising
their standard of living. Call it Neo-Colonialism if you want. But this time
we should do it for their benefit exclusively, and not for our own as was
the case with colonialism in the 19th and 20th century.
Having just realized how long my story has got by now, I think I'd better
conclude here by stating that although the situation in the USA today can
not be entirely compared with what I just wrote about, I'm convinced that
there are plenty of causes and effects that are parallel to Europe's case.
So what would therefore be wrong with the Americans sharing some of their
rice bowls with the Mexicans, the Cubans, Haitians or whoever else are now
jumping the barb wire time and time again? Who could be against them helping
to boost those countries economies by getting them the infrastructure and
know-how to make better products that would sell better, improve and above
all broaden their educational levels so they would produce more and higher
qualified people, or help them to get more productive on their farms and
with the introduction of modern technology and processes achieve more and
better agricultural products on the market whilst lowering their costs?
Of course many will disagree with me, but the question is: is there an
alternative? Well, yes there is. And that is having people from all corners
of the world trying to get into the land of milk and honey they've been
dreaming of, and no one being able to control this, and having to let this
go on until internal pressures get so high that people are shouting to grant
them legal status. To me, that would be like someone is blowing the whistle
for the next herds to get started making their way over.
So, Hugo, you wanted the opinion of some real people. Well, you got mine
allright. It was a pleasure writing this out and I hope it makes some sense
to you, even if you think the idea is totally wacky. In any event I'm
stopping right here, but not without asking you to say hello to Connie and
tell her I really appreciate all the fine jokes she's mailing me from time
to time.
Un abrazo,
Marc L. E. Snebbout
Hugo, agradezco tus correos y respecto de este asunto, solo conosco lo que los medios nos dosifican, y se habla tanto que ya no sabes que cabrones se traen y quiene tienen razòn y quienes no, por lo que creo que toda acciòn que se encamine a generalizar como todos buenos o todos criminales es injusta, mas tratandose de un fenomeno social como es la migraciòn, creo que debe haber justa mediania para diferentes segmentos de migrantes, sin llegar a medidas tan radicales en todos los sentidos, porque quierase o no la sociedad estadounidense ya asimilo esta amalgama y ya forma parte de sus necesidades y vivir cotidiano y como siempre creo que es mejor un mal arreglo que un buen pleito, hasta que esten dadas las condiciones para un buen arreglo de ganar ganar, en lo que sin duda debera estar presente el buen oficio politico y la buena diplomacia que lleve a buen acuerdo las voluntades de las partes y neutralice las de aquellos que promueven y capitalizan los conflictos.
En conclusion, Quien sabe o como dijo Cantinflas Yo solo se que no se niii...
Madres.
Saludos. Jorge R.
Hugo, I don't know what the answer is, but I do know exporting mid/high end jobs to China, India, etc... and the illegal immigrants coming in and taking over the low end is growing a huge base of people that do not have jobs above the poverty level. I think like most things of this nature, they need to be managed better with a strategic view, but the world in which we live wants higher quarterly profits now, so then everyone needs to keep up and follows suit. I think we would've been better off with a business man like Ross Perot in the white house who would've strived for a level playing field across the globe, and then let productivity be the deciding factor.
Thanks, Mike
Hola Hugo!
I would like you to know that I did not go to work yesterday in solidarity with the demonstrations going on around the US and in observance of International Labor Day which the U.S. apparently does not think it is important to participate in. I think that the situation for immigrants in this country is difficult at best. Although 12 million is a very large and daunting number, I think there should be a streamlined naturalization and legalization process. It should be made so that those that have been here trying very hard to build lives for their children have a feasbile timeline. It seems more and more like "coming to America to make a better life" is a pipe dream.
Thanks for asking,
Marisa
The marches are getting mixed reviews. The first ones were almost
spontaneous and were very effective in letting people know the magnitude of
the situation. The ones yesterday were organized by unions and people with
political agendas. They brought the point home but they left a bad taste in
many non Latinos.
I lived during the brazero era in the fifties and I would not want the same
program today. There must be greater safeguards and a path to citizenship.
Before they were used and abused. The employer had all the power.
The part that rubs the people wrong is that the workers are hear illigally.
That presents a big problem. The last amnesty in the eightys only brought
more people and thisa frightens the Anglos.
There is no doubt that the immigrants are needed and contribute greatly but
many people are threatened and choose to see only the social services
aspect. When the total picture is taken into account I think it is a win win
situation. The big problem is how do we get them here with out breaking the
law?
I am very much involved in the education of the children. Go to
www.justicebychoice.org and you will see our manifesto and what we are
trying to do just in the area of education.
Thanks for caring about our brothers.
Give my regards to all. Gregorio
All I ask of you is forever to remember me as Loving you
Hello Hugo,
did not foget you, but have been swamped last few months...
anyway, no wyning ...guess you know me already well enough that I would put the "human rights" and "all humans being equal" above all other laws.
In that specific case, if countries are having several benefits of "cheap labor" by foreign people they should also be willing to accept them fully in their country. Pretty simple.
Greetings from Germany...the future championship final participant..... :-) ....probably against Mexico. :-)
Hasta la vista!
Eckhard E.
Nota de Hugo :ésta es la traducción de la nota de Marc l.E. Snebbout.(Para aquellos lectores
que no leen en Inglés).
Hola Hugo, una pregunta muy interesante me estas haciendo, una que no es fácil de contestar en menos de un par de páginas.
Este es uno de esos debates que todo mundo tiene la razón y no al mismo tiempo.
Así que voy a tratar de dar mi opinión tan brevemente como pueda, mi consejo para los USA o de hecho cualquier país en el mundo es simple:
NO CONCEDAN ESTATUS LEGAL A INMIGRANTES ILEGALES.
Aquí en Bélgica, como en la mayoría de los otros países en Europa, hemos hecho eso y otros errores en el pasado y los resultados han sido devastadores.
No que oficialmente hayamos concedido estatus legal a esa cantidad de personas. Lo que si hemos hecho es peor que eso.
Esto comenzó en los años 60 cuando la mayoría de Europa occidental era próspera y las penas de la Segunda Guerra Mundial estaban casi olvidadas. Nuestra gente comenzó a sentirse demasiado bien para hacer algunos de los trabajos sucios como recoger la basura o el trabajo en minas. Asi que dimos la bienvenida a millares de trabajadores turcos y marroquíes a nuestro país para ese tipo de trabajo y ellos por supuesto eran los mas felices en el mundo por estar aquí y por tener mas que una vida decente. Por supuesto esos inmigrantes vinieron aquí completamente legalmente, conservando su nacionalidad pero permitiéndoles vivir según su cultura y practicar su propia cultura.
¡¿Y porque no permitirles hacer eso? Después de que todo Bélgica es un país democrático con una constitución muy liberal, esas personas hicieron un trabajo justo y les pagaron justo y no hay nada malo en eso, pero en cuanto empezaron a prosperar ellos comenzaron a darse cuenta que a pesar del dinero que ellos enviaban a sus familias, ellos seguían viviendo en miseria.
Así que comenzaron a traérselos a Bélgica, a la isla de leche y miel, primero a sus esposas e hijos, luego a sus padres, abuelos, hermanos, hermanas, tíos, tías…. Tal vez con excepción de esposas e hijos ninguno de sus parientes entró al país legalmente, pero en cuanto estaban aquí las autoridades se dieron cuenta de esto, pero lo toleraron y lo siguieron haciendo por muchas décadas.
Ha habido casos documentados de un inmigrante legal que trajo alrededor de 12 parientes, todos viviendo juntos bajo el mismo techo ¿ y eso que? No es su problema?, de seguro lo es, pero el que si es nuestro problema es de que mientras que un inmigrante legal tenia un trabajo, uno de los buenos, pero no demasiado bueno para alimentar a 14 bocas , el resto de la familia comenzaba a vivir a expensas de nuestro seguro social, el cual es conocido como uno de los mejores del mundo.
Mientras que nadie protestó que sus propios hijos podrían ir a nuestras escuelas sin ningún costo, la esposa y sus hermanos y hermanas así como sus padres podrían registrarse con una agencia de desempleados. No es demasiado duro imaginar que siendo inexperto e incapaz de hablar cualquiera de nuestras lenguas nacionales, el conseguir un trabajo para ellos era casi imposible. Así que cada mes ellos podían recolectar una cantidad sustancial del dinero de pagador de impuestos en la forma de beneficio para desempleado . Me imagino que no te sorprenderá el saber que nuestros rangos de impuestos subían año con año hasta que alcanzaron el mas alto en el mundo.
¿Y nuestro Gobierno? Bueno, ellos solo se quedaban parados y viendo lo que pasaba.
La mayoría de los pasados 30 años Bélgica ha sido gobernada por una coalición Romano-Roja es decir demócratas cristianos y partidos socialistas, en el cual el anterior siempre lo proporcionó el primer ministro y por lo tanto los demócratas cristianos aparentaban tener el poder, mientras que los que realmente se esforzaban eran los socialistas. Y tu sabes tan bien como yo que sería impensable para un socialista tomar cualquier iniciativa para parar este drenaje de nuestro sistema de bienestar. ¡De hecho, hasta incluso negaron a que había un problema
CONTINUARÁ !!!
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